Voices.com is doing it again.
They are making it harder and harder for regular (Premium) members to audition for, and book jobs.
How does “Voices” do it?
By creating yet another exclusive membership level, limited to a group of very special people who get preferential treatment. But before I get to the new program, let’s talk about the current situation.
As a voice-over blogger and coach, people often share their frustration about voice casting sites with me. One of my students wanted to know: “Why does it seem almost impossible to land a job on a site like voices.com? I pay them $399 per year, and I audition like crazy. This year I have yet to book a single job. What I am I doing wrong?”
I told him: “You might not be the problem. It’s the system that is rigged against you. On purpose.”
“We’re all about empowering you and your voice in this world of opportunities. (…) The Premium membership is designed specifically with the voice-over professional in mind.”
What many “ordinary” voices-members don’t realize, is that they’re being treated like second-rate citizens. Their annual fee does not give them access to all the jobs and exposure the site has to offer. That privilege goes to 100 Platinum members who pay a whopping $2500 each per year.
What does that get you? Supposedly this:
- the highest rankings in the Voices.com search engine
- a one-on-one consultation with your very own Success Manager
- two press releases per year
- being invited to audition for select Professional Services jobs
- Google marketing
- higher directory rankings
- bonus eBooks available for download
- VIP customer service
A GOOD INVESTMENT?
The question is: Is such a membership worth it?
Here’s the problem: no one knows, because we don’t have data that can be independently verified. All we have is anecdotal evidence, and a multitude of marketing messages.
I spoke to one Platinum member who asked to remain anonymous. She said:
“I have auditioned over 700 times in the past 12 months, and have been hired about 16 times. Out of those 700+ auditions, around 270 of them remained ‘closed’ with no action taken.”
By the way, these numbers are purposely vague to make sure the voice talent cannot be identified. What I can reveal is that she more or less broke even. In other words: she made as much as the cost of the Premium membership… by auditioning over 700 hundred times.
Imagine spending all that time trying to land a few jobs, and ending up making no money at all. Is that a good return on investment? Of course this is just one example of one member, so keep an open mind.
A NEW MEMBERSHIP PLAN
Now, are you ready for this?
The same person recently received a new offer from the Canadian company:
“I’m happy to tell you that we’re releasing a new membership called the Platinum Unlimited membership on September 1st, 2015. The Platinum Unlimited membership includes all of the features and benefits of a regular Platinum membership. (…) Additionally, the Platinum Unlimited membeship (sic) will include a Voices.com branding recording that would be provided to clients via email to give you excellent exposure while showing clients how impressive our talent can sound.
Currently, we have a system called VoiceMatch Invitations that controls the number of jobs you’re invited to. With the new Platinum Unlimited membership, we will essentially be turning this off. You will be invited to approximately twice as many public jobs postings. Our original Platinum membership gives you the opportunity to receive more private invitations because of the boost in your search ranking, while the Platinum Unlimited membership will allow you to choose from a larger amount of publicly posted jobs.
The Platinum Unlimited membership will only be available to our Platinum members. As always, we limit the Platinum membership to 100 people. This means that some people will have the Platinum membership, others will upgrade to the Platinum Unlimited membership, but in total between the two memberships we will never exceed 100 members.”
And how much is this Platinum Unlimited membership going to cost you?
How about five thousand dollars?!
No, I’m not kidding.
THE TRUTH COMES OUT
Here’s what I find particularly revealing.
In the invitation above, Voices.com admits that they are purposely controlling the number of auditions members get invited to, and they’re curtailing the number of public jobs their members receive.
The only way to turn that system completely off, is to fork over five grand. As of September 1st, even Platinum members won’t be receiving all the job postings anymore. Remember, Platinum Unlimited members will receive “approximately twice as many public jobs postings.”
With this move, Premium members are relegated to a third tier position, making it even harder for them to compete with colleagues who get preferential treatment.
Talk about stacking the cards against you!
Let’s briefly look at a few other perks a Platinum and Platinum Unlimited plan have to offer. First off, there’s the highest voices.com search engine ranking, and higher directory ranking.
This whole spiel about increased search engine ranking sounds very much like the snake oil sales people who are inundating my inbox with ridiculous claims and outrageous offers: “For only $500 a month we can get your website a top ranking on Google!” Everyone knows it’s bogus.
But let’s assume the creative minds at Voices can manipulate their search engine to give the Platinum & Platinum Unlimited members top spots. What this means is that neither competence nor experience matters if you want clients to see your name first. It’s all about how much you pay.
In the world of Voices.com, money trumps talent. It’s a clear indicator of where their priorities are.
ARE YOU A VOICES-VIP?
Secondly, only Platinum and Platinum Unlimited members will receive VIP customer service, whatever that means.
I don’t know about you, but I teach my students to treat every client like a VIP, regardless of how much they’re paying. Why?
Because it is the right thing to do.
I believe these overpriced Platinum programs are a slap in the face of all the regular paying members who expect to get a fair shot at booking voice-over jobs. What’s more, these schemes are only guaranteed to fill the coffers of Voices.com.
So, if you are in any way tempted to go Platinum Unlimited, take a moment and think of all the things you could do with 5K that would help your business right now.
This is five thousand dollars YOU control, and not some greedy company in Canada.
I wonder what they will come up with next.
Paul Strikwerda ©nethervoice
PS Be sure to read the follow-up story, and find out how colleagues and clients respond: Voices.com: Unethical and Greedy?
If you do the math, what you are seeing is an evolution of how these sites worked in the past going away.
The party’s over for newcomers.
Lets see:
10 Members at $5000= 50000
100 members at 400 = 40000
But there’s more. Money is also saved:
10 working members =
less complaints,
less customer service inquiries,
reliable QA
In short, the demand for quality online and talent saturation, plus voice talent starting businesses that compete and platform leakage is forcing what I predicted would happen back in 2011…Websites are turning into agencies for the best talents who enjoyed the most success.
Oddly, Ubers successful business model taught market places it can happen.
2nd class citizens?
Welcome back to the industry they disrupted many years ago.
Business as usual because the DNA of the business wanted it that way.
Ps – 1000 working members at 5000 is easier to handle and pays better than 6000 at 400, and the idea isnt new. Look at their main competition. They did this 2 years ago (pay more shut it off)
I didn’t get the impression that the exclusive Platinum Club is reserved for the best/most successful talent. The bar is as low as it is for regular membership: if you can pay the fee, you’re in.
One of my contacts who is a Platinum member, is a relative newcomer hoping to increase her chances of winning an audition by paying more money to the site.
You are in a different boat however, Paul. You speak Dutch. If you made bologna sandwiches for a living and wanted to do voiceovers as a hobby, they would still try to get you on board. Why? You are a vendor offering product, and you fill a rare demographic. These websites are “marketplaces”, so if aisle 3 is short of Dutch language product, especially those who can actually do the work and pay, they will seek more of them.
There is an ethics thing here, that I rarely see anyone address. The fact is only people who get LOTS of work “should maybe think about” buying in, but they won’t stop people from buying. Why should they? Does a parachute salesman stop people who may never jump out of a plane? Would a coach turn down 5000 bucks if they knew the voice talent had no chance in the world? Not many will.
The main reason: The majority of the life-blood of the voice over economy online feeds off newcomers. Why? Because there’s more of them than people who get work and newcomers are willing to spend more. When people are successful, they feel less obligation to pay for anything, deliver audio faster, and once they have become really exposed they think they should be able to use the websites for free. That is not a criticism. It is a fact proven to me and it makes as much sense as tourist buying a celebrity a drink in an LA bar. (They got the money to do it themselves, so they dont need the website anymore)
As for the email you received, usually some people are emailed first about the platinum offer, but again they wont stop anyone with a wallet from buying in.
What voice talents should be thinking of is just how much “rates” have gone down for jobs the last few years as these websites try to appeal to Walmart shoppers. Meanwhile, the price of subscriptions has gone up. Eventually, this model collapses because the cost of start up takes too long to recoup an ROI for a talent, and the website is fighting to make clients happy with lesser quality product for those who approach the internet with a Walmart-shopping attitude.
But given these websites were more so “great to use when getting started, they will always have a beginner audience with money to spend.
In the end, no one ever feels they should pay for anything, until ‘feel good’ promotions come along to make people feel important or dares them to think, “Are you professional enough?”. I certainly never forgot where I came from and remember dropping 5000 bucks on crappy demos back in 1995; demos which never got me work.
If I may offer something, check out Dan Ariely’s video on economic behavior called, “Our Buggy Moral Code”. It may explain more how I am thinking. I am not slighting anyone for what they do. I am saying this business move is a sign they needed to change because the business model is not as effective as it used to be, and will continue down this path until a complete overhaul. Those who buy in are paying for whatever overhaul comes next.
Here’s a quote from my book Making Money In Your PJs, freelancing for voice-overs and other solopreneurs. The chapter is called “Leaving Voices.com.”
“2009 was the year I joined Voices.com. I was naive. I was excited. I was determined to make it as a voice-over. “Voices” seemed to be the perfect place to hang out my shingle and conquer the world.
Today, I have a five-star rating, well over 5400 listens (more than any other Dutch talent), and I have landed a total of… (are you ready?) TEN jobs, earning me a whopping $2,740.89. G-d only knows how many auditions I have had to submit before being selected.
This can only mean one of two things. Either, I stink at playing the Pay-to-Play game, or I’m a talentless, misguided soul who should be doing something useful with his life.”
So, even though I fill a rare demographic, voice castings sites made me pay, and gave me very little to play. Also, even though I’m a native Dutch speaker, most of my voice-over work is in English because of my European accent.
I agree with you that P2P’s will eventually implode. Both of us have written about that extensively. Part of that has to do with an erosion or rates, while membership fees are going up. Some people are finally waking up to the fact that these sites may not have the best interest of the VO-community at heart.
Thanks for the tip on Dan’s video. I will certainly check it out.
Paul, what I’d like to know is why some of the well-known VO Talents, coaching personalities and sites are promoting P2P as a viable income opportunity along with coaching classes on how to work the sites, for which they charge for their service? I think that if change is going to come in the P2P arena, if it ever does, it has to come from the VO professional’s and reputable coaching companies. The message to the P2P sites has to be consistent. I also question what VO coaching services are putting out there. When I first research VO everyone, especially the experts were telling newbies you can record with a USB mic straight into your computer, in your closet and subsequently put yourself out there. This brought a deluge of untrained and inadequately equipped people into the market place which the P2P sites jump on as there business model. (So why is the industry now asking themselves where these untrained/unprofessional individuals came from).
I see now some those same VO professionals and sites are moving away from suggesting the USB/Closet aa the way to go. My point is that the leaders in the industry created a lot of the current issues we are seeing today. The industry made it sound easy.
I recently spoke to someone who contacted me about getting into the business. Gave him the whole deal, i.e. equipment, Website, training, marketing, etc. Never heard from him again. I did not intend to discourage him or anyone else, however, I think we all need to put a realistic message out there so they can make an informed decision. I think you will find the VO pool becoming more professional and putting out a quality work product.
Paul you are one of the very few that consistently gets the realistic message out.
We just need the entire industry on the same page and for those in the industry to rethink “their” business models.
Sorry for the rant. Just thought I’d discuss the elephant in the room.
Thanks for bringing in the elephant, Frank. I blog about that elephant all the time.
I think it’s important for people to understand that the voice-over industry is completely unregulated. It’s literally anyone’s game. You don’t need a degree, extensive experience or quality equipment to start auditioning. As far as most P2P’s are concerned, anyone with a major credit card is welcome to the table. Money has become the arbiter of talent.
I hesitate to comment about “the well-known VO Talents, coaching personalities,” who are promoting sites like Voices dot com. All of them are skilled communicators that can and should speak for themselves. Just like you and me, they run a for-profit business, and they wouldn’t be promoting a service if there wasn’t some kind of payoff involved. It could be monetary. It could be otherwise.
Looking at it from their point of view, the vast Voices dot com pool of members is the ideal ocean to fish coaching clients from. Many members are newcomers to the industry, and could benefit from classes and individual sessions.
Lastly, the purpose of marketing and advertising is not to put a realistic image out there. The food on the box of a TV dinner always looks better than the crap you usually find inside. So, if you’re looking for a realistic picture of the business, don’t fall for propaganda. It doesn’t matter which business you’re focusing on. Master marketeers will use every trick in the book to sell a tool to a fool.
Many voice-overs make a living selling BS as best as they can, so I expect them to be able to tell whether the emperor has any clothes on or not. Once enough people have had enough of certain business practices, they will stop supporting it. Our wallet is a powerful weapon.
Will the industry ever get on the same page? The World Voices Organization is trying to get as many people on board, but it’s a slow process, and elephants take up a lot of space…
All Voice-over artists must try stagewish.com
It is a free international platform and doesn’t charge any fee.
So what happens to voices.com loses out all of their premium members
Do they start losing money? One can only hope
The thing is: people have short memories, and don’t do their homework. Once this story has been forgotten (which will happen in a day or two), it will be business as usual. And there will always be a new contingent of ignorant beginners who will fall for the various schemes these companies have to offer. I speak from experience, because I used to be one of them.
Another terrific post Paul! Always appreciate your insights into the business of these greedy fat cats. Here’s what I might do with $5k.
Either..
1.) Invest in 2-3 new demos (with either Uncle Roy or Jordan Reynolds)
2.) take a two week vacation in Italy.
3.) pay off some credit card debt
4.) throw some of it into a Roth IRA
5.) give a portion to charity
6.) invest in coaching sessions with my voiceover coach
Or
7.) take a luxury train trip from Toronto to Vancouver
I dropped voice123 when renewal came ’round last year and will do the same with voices.com. #2 on your list is where my money will go next summer in celebration of a big birthday. It’ll be more soothing for my soul.
As freelancers, most of us operate as soloists, and it is very important to feed the soul from time to time. Enjoy!
Brilliant ways to spend 5K, Christian. ALL of them will probably be more beneficial to your VO-career, and this includes taking a vacation to recharge your batteries. Bon voyage!
Excellent post, Paul. If we think of on line casting sites as another form of talent agency, choices become more obvious.
Do you have to pay your agent a subscription fee each year?
Are you limited in the number of auditions you get?
Does the site advocate for you, personally, to get jobs?
Is their success determined by your success?
You get the idea… I still contend that pay-to-play sites are a blight on the industry, driving the value of our skills down while fleecing the more successful of their members. Unlike the “real” world, being good at your craft is not as important as your ability to pay for preferential treatment.
Thanks for “keeping it real”.
You’re very welcome, Joe. You made some valid points about working with agents.
Agents actually screen voice-overs based on talent and authenticity, and not on the size of their pocket books. Plus, they have an incentive to work hard for you. When you get paid, they get paid!
I never buy the hacks or advanced levels on my video games. It’s not satisfying to win that way. You have to earn it. The idea of buying one’s way into auditions is similarly unsatisfying. It’s better to take the $2500 or $5000 and improve demos and take classes. I’ve stuck with a regular membership because clients would contact me directly through it for jobs. I wouldn’t audition. Now they can’t even find me on the site search engine. The last few that did hire me complained that most of the talent on voices.com were just flat out terrible. This is the last straw.I won’t be renewing this year.
You’re not the only one that won’t be renewing, Lance. Unfortunately, there always seems to be a new contingent of hopefuls, ready to give it a try. Within a few days, this story will be long forgotten, and it will be business as usual at Voices.
Hey there Paul… and everyone.
I’m less concerned with whether or not those “upper tier” memberships are worth it… and MORE concerned with the fact that the Premium membership really isn’t “premium” at all anymore. Is it?
I remember feeling that way when voices originally introduced the Platinum plan… which I remember getting an invite to as a premium member. If I remember correctly, the promise of being listed in the upper part of the search rankings on the site was made to would be premium members at first. So, Paul, your description of Premium members being “relegated to a third tier position” seems pretty accurate.
It would be my preference that those platinum and ultimate (or whatever its called) plans… be non-existent, because I DO feel as the the cards are stacked against me, as you put it, Paul.
My two cents… for whatever it’s worth. Maybe if we are lucky the voices.com people with read this post and at least pause briefly to think about it. Oh well.
Thanks for this blog, Paul. Good stuff as always!
~ Tom
In marketing, when things are more exclusive, they become more desirable. At least, in theory. However, I have a feeling that this new level of exclusivity may backfire just a little bit. Based on the responses, I think many commentators would be quite okay with that.
https://www.facebook.com/stephanieciccarelli?fref=ts
Chief Marketing Officer Stephanie Ciccarelli
Stephanie seems like a good person and a Christian. Maybe we can reach out to her and get her side of it.
Hi James,
I am very touched by your comment on my page. Thank God for you! You don’t know how much this means to me. Thank you. Life isn’t easy when you try to live for Christ, is it? Thank you for joining me on this road.
God bless you,
Stephanie
My experience shows that you can email people all day long and lots of times not get a response..,but if you’re a friend on facebook (I AM)they will usually respond. So, do you think I should send her a link to this page today?
These pay-to-play companies are not much different (or better) than televangelists.
FACT: Voices.com and Voice123 – at least initially – were formed/headed not by people with any experience in the voice-over industry or even any directly-related field, but by marketing (and IT) gurus who saw an opportunity (aka lots of people entering the voice-over biz) and jumped on it.
From the 1940s and into the 60s, the tobacco industry (aided by their willing partners in advertising) were producing commercials featuring actors portraying doctors who told us that smoking cigarettes was actually good for us. And people around the world bought it.
Beginning somewhere in the mid-to-late 80s, the pharmaceutical industry began heavily ramping up their marketing efforts and, today, there are people who allow TV commercials to diagnose their conditions. My doctor told me he has patients who leave his office annoyed if he refuses to prescribe the drug they asked for.
And now we have people with no experience in our industry dangling carrots that are constantly being yanked out of reach just as we think we’re getting close enough to snare them.
I did two years, one with each of these two entities, already a number of years ago at the $300 annual subscription. I wasn’t surprised it has since gone to $399. I fell off my chair when I read a new level is priced at $2500, and nearly choked at the idea of $5000.
Y’know what? We have to stop believing everything we’re told and put our creative minds to work for ourselves. We can use the exercise and we certainly can use the extra money in our pockets.
Let’s say buh-bye to the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakkers of voice-over for good.
Amen to that, Mike!
Too many people still believe that the emperor is wearing clothes. When someone’s hungry enough, any carrot you dangle in front of his face will seem appealing, even if it’s a rotten one.
I have failed to land any work from voices.com in over six months, I will be dropping them today.
Congratulations, Billy. If you’ve given it some time, and there’s no return on investment, what else can one do?
Hi Paul,
First time listener and your comment of “In the world of Voices.com, money trumps talent. It’s a clear indicator of where their priorities are.” Is very true indeed. They are a London, Ontario based company that has received federal and provincial funding to hopefully create 35 full time jobs. That’s nice for them. News story from 2013 at http://blackburnnews.com/london/2013/02/19/federal-loan-could-mean-new-london-jobs/
Helps them got jobs but not me. End of story.
Cheers
As a business, their main objective should be to turn a profit. I run a business myself, and that’s my objective too. However, I don’t receive any federal or provincial funding. Everything comes out of my pocket, and I am very particular about how much I spend, and where I spend it.
I’ve played the Pay-to-Play game for quite a few years, and as an investment it didn’t pay off for me. There are colleague who have different experiences, but people should realize that they are the exception to the rule.
Paul- you are right on top of it with this. The level of bad behavior had me bailing on these sites a while ago.
The other thing you have to consider as a possibility is that just like dating sites having fake accounts to entice membership subscriptions, the opportunity has always been there for many of these “jobs” or “auditions” to be purely phantom work that doesn’t actually exist. Rather it is generated to “keep the buzz going” and make the sites look more active than they actually are…
Occasionally people get some knockoff work for a “client” somewhere that’s nothing more than some money paid out to further the perpetration.
Of course – I’m NOT saying anyone actually does it… I’m just saying the possibility is there and certainly not too far from the realm given what is common knowledge in the industry of dating sites – which is essentially what these P2P’s actually are.
I’m still wondering about the 270 jobs that remained ‘closed’ with no action taken…
Ten?!
*insert double take*
You have just described my experience at slot machines in Atlantic City….
I pay 300, lose 10 times, then on the 11th pull…I win back 290 making me think in the moment that it’s worth it and I have won.
That’s how it feels.
Whats happening, however, is that the Dutch market is not abundant enough for you on these sites and it never will be because certain countries reject how the North American voiceover market has played out.
To quote a survey response to me last year,
“Steven, you’re a nice American, but most American voices will jump on any 75 dollar piece of VO meat. ”
The talent who wrote that is from Italy.
Anyway, where you see “slap in the face”, I see “struggle to reinvent and needing funds for it”.
I have said before…talent control this online business by what they choose to invest in.
Your last line is something every voice talent should frame and hang on the studio wall. We’re not helpless leaves in the wind. Our purchasing power has the potential to move markets and those operating in those markets.
Insightful as always, Paul. I’m having a difficult time seeing the benefits to these Uber Members.
Voice match is supposed to benefit clients and talent by limiting auditions to those that fit your voice, style and range. Those with a higher match are presented first, in order of submission; so it still pays to submit early, but if you only match 80%, even if your audition is received first it will be listed at the bottom.
This benefits both talent and client. What I don’t understand is how can turning off this system benefit anybody?
Aren’t all members getting every audition that matches 100%? If not what criteria do they use to pick and choose which you see and which you don’t? If you do get all the top matches, how does anybody benefit from getting auditions that don’t match?
As I see it the holy grail in this business is a coin; on one side the client wants to find the best voice for his project with minimum effort, on the other the talent wants the best job for his voice.
There are two approaches to finding this coin. Boutique talent pools and agents do this by vetting every member of the talent pool and then using expertise and experience to forward the best talent. The Pay to Play sites have neither experience or expertise, so they sell on volume, price and (poor) technology.
Considering their process was only fair to middling in the past, submitting more auditions that don’t match a clients specifications benefits no one. True, Super Duper members will get first crack at auditions and first crack at the clients ear but clients will soon tire of wading through inappropriate auditions—even if well delivered by a fine talent.
Perhaps they should rename the site “VoiceMatch.com”
I can’t tell you how many jobs I have landed not because I matched the description, but because I didn’t. That’s why I rarely look at descriptions. The way to stand out is not to do what everybody is attempting to do. Most clients don’t want more of the same. They want to hear an original approach. That’s why I think this voice matching system is very limited and limiting. And -as we have learned today- it can be tweaked to benefit those who have money to burn.
I have to make one correction in my post. At Voices.com the Super and Super Duper memberships give you no advantage in submissions. Their submissions will fall in place according to VoiceMatch and time of submission.
Their only advantage comes in seeing more jobs and in preferential placement in search results.
I regret the error.
First off, great article, Paul. I was once a strong supporter of voices.com. So much so that I argued with you on another blog. But over the past year or so, I’ve found them doing everything they can to drive a wedge between production and talent to have full and total control over the hiring process. They screen all projects and try to convert them to their professional services department. By doing this they accomplish a few things:
1) They carve out a portion of the budget that was ear-marked for talent as their “professional services” fee.
2) They act as the middle man and keep you completely anonymous from the client. This way, voices has control if you ever want to be hired by the client again in the future. I’ve even been told not to slate! Hmmmmmmm. Can we say suspicious?
3) If that wasn’t bad enough, they still take the sure pay escrow fee after swimming your money off the top! What a joke!
I called out a manager at the voices about this. I was asked, “would you ask WalMart what their mark up is?” Seriously!? They’re offering producers a premium, white glove service and making US pay for it! What a joke.
So now, they’ll get $5k, skim a large percentage off of jobs AND take 10%. I understand it’s great for their business and I don’t fault them for wanting to grow their company. But stop acting like the talent is their #1 priority.
I was also told by former voices.com employees that that converting jobs is their #1 priority, and if they had it their way, EVERY job would be handled by professional services.
I miss the old voices.com. Apparently so do a lot of other two tier talent….they’re starting to jump ship. Pretty soon it will be hosting noting but Fivrr talent and VO wannabes. Any way, enough of my rant. Great article!
Confession time: I was once a big voices.com believer! I even won the grand prize in a contest. You can read about this in The Most Embarrassing Moment of my Voice-Over Career.
In part because of the very same tactics you are describing, I had to break free, and follow my own path. Like you, I have no problem with Voices being a for-profit business. But there are many ways to turn a profit. It seems to me that they are forgetting that without voice talent, there would be no voices.com.
It is time they give every single member the VIP treatment they deserve.
I looked at the stagewish site, but did not register. Why? I’m trying to make up my mind whether it is an email address harvester.
It’s new to me too, and I haven’t had time to look into it. I have a special email address I use when I’m not entirely sure about a site. That way my regular email addresses stay pretty much spam-free.
They have been like a small time crack dealer. Seduce the kids (new VO talent) with a taste of being a voice talent, and then get you addicted thinking it’s actually good. Then when you get a job or two barely breaking even, they hit you with cocaine. And offer better jobs. But it’ll cost you. I have not seen the value in voices for many years and found myself angry with all the people out there who seemed to have drink the kool aid.
Most people act as if paying for an opportunity is good business sense. If you run a business you know what ROII means. Return on initial investment. If you make 500 dollars on a 400 dollar investment and are happy with that, you simply don’t belong in business. The practice they are in would be considered down right illegal for any legitimate agency in the U.S. But they hide behind the auspices of a website. They are millionaires through slave labor, and if anyone can’t see that then I feel badly for them.
I always tell my students: “It’s not how much you make, but how much you get to keep that matters.” Misinformed voices-members often tell me that by winning one audition, the site has already paid for itself. The question is: How much time and energy did they spend auditioning for hundreds of jobs, until they got lucky? But as you point out, if you don’t know what ROII means, you shouldn’t even be in this business. You fully deserve to be taken advantage of.
Sooo, let’s keep re-posting this so that it doesn’t get forgotten as I am quite certain that many of the auditions do not get to the client. As an aside, I’ve been told that there is a great possibility that voices.com ‘agents’ may or may not receive a kick back of sorts to book work for certain members. The bio for one of the agents describes them as ‘sparkly’…that’s what I want – a ‘sparkly’ agent!
To be honest, I don’t know if voices-reps work on commission or not. It wouldn’t surprise me. Some people need a financial incentive to do a good job. Others do a good job because it is the right thing to do.
I’m pretty sure some sparks are flying at the voices.com offices, today.
I was a member on and off of voices.com for about 2 years. I auditioned a total of 17 times and booked 1 small job through a regular client who hired me outside the site. There was a trust already in place. I have found that those high ranking members (front page and five star ratings) get preference over others who might be a better fit for the job. This is the result of inner corporate politics, a bit of nepotism and now deep pockets—and shouldn’t be the basis for hiring talent at all. I could be the right talent for the job and have a testimonial from a high ranking network/ad exec but without those 5 stars— I’m not getting hired. It’s all silly and a waste of people’s time.
That’s a nice but sad summary of how the system seems to work, Christian. I’ve been in the same boat, and I eventually jumped overboard because it was a sinking ship.
Christian’s comments echo exactly the reason The Voice Realm is now the premier website talent list themselves at. There is no preferential order determined by who pays the most money. Results are 100% random, giving everyone a fair opportunity to appear in front of clients. Which by the way is an ever growing list. We have lost count of the number of clients who have ‘jumped ship’ and now use The Voice Realm because of the amateur auditions they were receiving on other sites.
As you probably have guessed, Lauren works for The Voice Realm. As a blogger, I do not recommend or endorse any voice casting websites. I encourage everyone to do research, ask around, and make a decision based on your own values, budget and needs.
Classic response Lauren! You crack me up!
Anyone considering using The Voice Realm need only look at the content of their tweets and how they respond to those who do not agree with them. This is part of the problem of all online casting sites, they exist to make money for themselves and not some altruistic wish to help voice talent. I’ve seen more mature comments from teenagers on Facebook. They spin it better than Bill O’Reilly. And when presented with facts, they deny it and tell one to do their research. Delusional. This post is about Voices, but don’t die one minute think Voice Realm is the white knight they put themselves up to be on social media. They co-opted my tweet of Paul’s article to promote themselves. Bad business.
Chris, I don’t know a business that doesn’t aim to make money. Do you not?
Also in a recent survey more than 90% of our current roster of talent plan to stay with The Voice Realm for the following year. I think you’ll find by reading our blogs that many many many pro voice talent are booking regular gigs through us, and feel that we are the best site to be listed on.
Sorry you don’t feel that way. You can’t please everyone!
Lauren
If promoting your talents just to put your company on a pedestal against your competition and stop at nothing to do it at any cost (as is the case here), is your idea of helping people, so be it. It’s disingenuous at best. You’ve been successful no doubt and you’ve obviously made strides over a short period of time, but shark-like opportunism like this isn’t going to suddenly redeem you.
Your approach to social interaction doesn’t do anything to recommend you. Your tweets are like a real life Monty Python Argument Clinic, unbelievably immature and self serving. If you were in a job interview and conducted yourself as you do on Twitter, how do you think you’d fare? It’s far from the first time you’ve gone on the attack while trying to play innocent victim. Even if VR was not double dipping and was operating totally for the talent, your online attitude negates all of it. It’s not just me, you’ve angered and insulted lots of really good talents and good people. Not the best way to do business.
let’s not forget the other elephant in the room: Voice123. They have recently changed their criteria (again) and not for the better. They also have Super Duper member plans (also, oddly enough, costing $5,000.)
They play the game differently. They actually penalize their bread and butter regular members and give more than a ranking advantage to their Super Duper members.
They are officially on record that their regular members are not expected to earn a living from their site (but they do everything they can to keep you from establishing relationships independently with clients.)
Even though you are paying them for the privilege of auditioning and then paying them to pay you and finally paying them a hefty fee off any job you get, unless you pay them $5,000 up front they will limit you to three, yes three, auditions per day.
Submit more than three and they will start turning off the flow of jobs you see until finally they cut you off entirely. That’s right, even though you are paying them 37 cents for each of those three submissions per day (more if you pay monthly) you won’t get a chance to submit at all.
Now the Super Duper members? They not only get to audition as much as they want, and they see all of the auditions, they see them first.
Ever wonder why when you hop on that audition that just seconds ago popped up in your queue and there’s already a dozen or so submissions? That’s because the SuperDuper members have already gotten the audition and only after a certain (undisclosed magic) number of them have submitted is the audition passed on to the hoi polloi; first to those who haven’t exceeded their daily allowance and then to the rest.
The system is not based on talent, nor making a living, nor even being a professional. It’s based on money; how much you are willing to spend and how little you really need to make any.
And as long as people are willing to put up with the odds being stacked against them on purpose, nothing will change.
I wanted to reply to this comment: You know I spent 5 years trying to teach people how to use the elephant website mentioned. I am one of a few who actually spent the time to read the tech manual and work to improve it. Fact is, only about 1200 out of 4000 of the paid members took advantage of the education I offered or offered constructive feedback. I eventually got tired of saying the same thing day in and day out.
Most talent hate to find out their system is an automated algorithm built around many things talent said they wanted on a forum from 2005-2010. I proved many times how talent stack the odds against themselves on that website. That “penalty” mentioned I believe was removed in 2012. Personally, I still think the algorithm is a great idea that never experienced its full potential. It is a balancing act determining when people get invited and what for, based on how talent taught the algorithm what to send them. But all algorithms reach a breaking point where the behavior becomes unfair to some, some will never work, and some will monopolize the system.
Best video to explain for this is TED’s talk “The Dirty Secret Behind Algorithms”.
Anyway, the talent who figured out how to use it (and heard me out) were getting paid well and grew their clients (some have commented here). They did so well in fact…the website changed in 2012 to offer something more affordable for clients. In 2013, when this happened, I saw another five years of explaining the business aka. talking to a wall everyday, and I moved on.
Many of the talents I helped have since done the same. Good for them. I still believe the algorithm was a great idea, but like people, needs to change every so often, and people hate change. But oh well.
ps- I was raised Catholic. LOL! But generally I do things because I am a guy who likes to help people succeed and avoid being treated like garbage. My motivation is based on honesty, character, integrity, and business ideals. I take issue with people mixing religion and business.
Chief Marketing Officer Stephanie Ciccarelli
Stephanie seems like a good person and a Christian. Maybe we can reach out to her and get her side of it.
“Hi James,
I am very touched by your comment on my page. Thank God for you! You don’t know how much this means to me. Thank you. Life isn’t easy when you try to live for Christ, is it? Thank you for joining me on this road.
God bless you,
Stephanie”
My experience shows that you can email people all day long and lots of times not get a response, but if you’re a friend on Facebook (I AM) they will usually respond. So, do you think I should send her a link to this page today?
This is what I wrote in my book “Making Money In Your PJs, Freelancing for Voice-Overs and other Solopreneurs: You can find it at the end of a chapter called Leaving Voices.com:
er..what does being a Christian have to do with anything? Plenty of christians are horrible people and plenty of non christians are lovely.
I guess some people hold Christians to a higher standard, but I agree with you. Let’s leave religion out of the discussion.
Man, I couldn’t get through all the comments though I am glad everyone is pitching in! I never have been on a P2P site, and I never will.
Let’s see… what could I do with $2500.00 for my VO business:
demo reel
training
marketing materials
gas and refreshment money for face to face networking events, coffee meetings
Investing the Right way in my voice over business
Anyway.
I’m with you, Jason. I’m so glad so many people responded. Of course it is obvious that the company we would like to hear from, is keeping quiet. My guess is that they’ll ride out the storm, and continue doing what they’re doing. Tomorrow is another day with another headline.
Several years ago I received some phone solicitation for the Platinum plan. I was still using Voices.com as my predominant P2P and doing fairly well there on the Premium plan (not enough from that channel alone to earn a living, but booking regularly). I listened to the pitch, and honestly, I was curious as to what I was missing out on!
The only thing I asked to seal the deal was the names of 2 or 3 Platinum members who would be willing to speak to me about how joining the higher tier benefited them. The salesman told me he’d ‘get back to me’ about that, and I followed up several times to see if anyone had popped up yet.
He continued to contact me as well, I believe with some pricing discounts? I honestly can’t remember, but I know I was still in the funnel. He eventually told me via either phone or email that no, no one was willing to speak to me.
That made my decision. Because if something is awesome, I want to tell everybody. If they’re going to have 100 signups no matter what, which it was back then, too, it wouldn’t have created competition for anyone to fear, because you already know the deal.
I ended my P2P run earlier this year. I’m very glad for the clientele I met, but it’s been 80/20 rule consistent that most who hire cheap, want to stay cheap forever, and when there’s no relationship-building in the beginning, there’s no loyalty in the end.
But the damage these sites have done (and I throw other freelance portals in other industries in, too) is create a mindset that newbies are buying a “Business in a Box” – i.e. all of their marketing is done for them with one signup and they have no where else they’ll ever need to seek leads. No matter how much we all have preached over the years that “P2P is just one piece of the pie!”, the bulk of them will never do anything else, and claim failure when there’s no ROI.
They don’t understand that client budgets aren’t what they’re seeing, so even when they make the rare step outside of P2P, they’re taking those rate assumptions with them. Having to educate a client recently whose also worked as a VO talent, who wanted to argue back about “this is just the way it is” when their experience is only with these sites gave me a huge wake-up call as to how far reaching the wrong information has gone.
I thank you again for your continued advocacy, Paul, and everyone else who keeps this industry worth caring about. Maybe it will take this level of multi-level marketing madness to hit the ‘reset’ button on what is a wonderful and valuable line of creative work.
I’m the one who has to thank you for sharing your experience and so much more, Dana. You make an excellent point about asking for testimonials from people you trust. After all, word of mouth is our bread and butter! People like being part of a success story. They want to talk about it. So, if no one was interested in sharing their experiences, what other conclusion could you have come to, other than the one you described?
At the moment I am penning this comment, this story has been read over 1500 times. Isn’t it telling that none of the commentators has disputed my conclusions? Usually a few Voices-fans will chime in, and tell me I am bitter and biased. But not this time. Are people finally starting to see the impact the P2P-model is having on our business?
I have to admit that I’m not very optimistic that things will change for the better soon. The whole concept of getting a “Business in a Box” as you so eloquently put it, appeals to beginners, and to those who are too lazy to do the legwork. And as you know, there are so many hopefuls who will gladly pay $399 for a chance to become a star.
Without PTP sites like Voices.com – where does a newcomer to voiceovers with a new demo start looking for work? Agents have huge rosters and aren’t necessarily looking to fill them anytime soon with new talent. If a newcomer was to reject the idea of joining a PTP site – how would they get started? I know this is a little off the subject but I was just interested in hearing your thoughts about it.
Hi Bruce, that’s a great topic that I’ve addressed in other blog posts, as well as in my book.
When I came to the States at the end of 1999, I had no connections, no studio, no agents, and no website. Pay to Plays didn’t even exist. And yet I managed to build a career as so many other voice-over colleagues have done.
The trouble with P2P’s is that they can make a talent dependent and reactive. Successful freelancers are independent and proactive. They do the legwork for a number of years. They get training. They learn how to run a for-profit business. They invest in quality equipment.
Many newcomers are not prepared to do that. They’d rather have everything presented to them on a silver platter. What could be easier than to pay a website $399, and receive auditions in your inbox every day? But that’s working on someone else’s turf and terms.
What many people overlook, is the fact that they have to have a quality product, before they put themselves on the market. In our field that means having an authentic voice that can be played like a professional plays an instrument. Once a certain level of mastery has been achieved, we can start talking about sales and marketing.
Connect with video producers, e-learning companies, etc. Wherever your sweet spot is, put yourself in contact with that niche. Take out the middle man.
If you want an agent, call your local SAG/AFTRA branch if you’re unfamiliar with the agents in your area, and they can probably give you some direction on who to focus on and how to get in touch. That’s what I did. I’ve never heard of an agent not being open to hearing new talent to potentially sign – they want to make money, and if there is talent out there that can deliver, at least with the experience I had, they’ll hear you. And with my former agent, they didn’t just sign local talent, but many familiar faces from across the country were also on their roster. Working remotely opens you to many different territories.
Don’t give up!
Great suggestions, Dana! The bottom line is: pros are proactive. They don’t sit around and wait till the email invites come in.
Secondly, pros don’t see auditions as a way to hone their skills. That’s the excuse I always hear when people don’t land a job on a P2P: “It was still was good practice!”
Here’s the bottom line: You practice to audition. You don’t audition to practice. Period.
Another excellent blog post! I was a member of a pay to play for exactly 1 year, could see that it was in no way worth it. I am a voice talent with a 6 figure income and I couldn’t seem to book a job to save my life on Voices123.
So I continue to do what I’ve always done. I treat each great client I get like gold, work with high quality equipment, always deliver early or on time, and continue to love my job and my lifestyle.
Newbies – get some training, get a great home setup (it isn’t that expensive) and make local connections! Get to know sound engineers, producers, and small business owners in your area.
That’s how you get started!
Jeannie
Jeannie, if there is a single success formula in voice-overs, you’ve just coined it! You also pointed out what’s wrong with the P2P system. If a 6-figure talent can’t book a job on one of those sites, it’s clearly not the talent’s fault, but a result of how these sites are set up. This includes the way fees are determined.
Similarly, I too consistently made lots more on one of their biggest competitor’s sites (not to brag, but to illustrate: multiple 4 figure gigs, with much higher quality clients), yet often was passed over, or never had my audition listened to on Voices for similar jobs at the same and lower price points.
Still, reps from their “Professional” Services Department seemed to delight in inviting me to gigs in the $100-$250 range…well below the minimum price I set in my contact preferences, and always considerably less than what the jobs were actually worth.
Nearly every time they did this, I e-mailed the rep back (CC-ed to David and Stephanie Ciccarelli) and told them in no uncertain terms that the rates they offered for such jobs/clients were ludicrous – and doubly insulting since not only did they ignore my bottom rate, it was below their own sub-standard rate card – and explicitly told them to not contact me again unless they brought something much more in line with reality.
Last year, a particularly persistent rep not only e-mailed me multiple times about another $100-$250 bottomfeeder private PSD invite I’d gritted my teeth about and quietly ignored – but also left phone messages AND tried to connect to me on LinkedIn.
Turns out, as I learned on a rare followup call with one of their code geeks, there was no connection between your stated minimum preferences and the PSD.
No “don’t contact unless price >=$XXX” alert message on your profile to tell them you weren’t interested, nothing.
If you matched the criteria for a job, or if the client wanted you, they’d just reach out to you willy-nilly, regardless of your pricing preferences.
Apparently, they’d NEVER EVEN THOUGHT OF SOMETHING LIKE THIS…so the coder put this “new feature” on his to-do list.
Apparently, he hasn’t gotten to it yet.
I just got notified about another $100-$250 gig a few weeks ago…which is quite interesting, since I let my subscription lapse in June. And how that unfolded is a debacle for a whole other posting…
(BTE, after years of being an increasingly very dissatisfied member, none of this really came as a surprise. See, I used to work for a software company, and found bugs all through their site, which I nearly always CCed directly to David and Stephanie when reporting – only to find them again a year or more later.
Yup, a well-run, smartly-programmed racket they’ve got going there, which respects and cares about the talent, for sure…)
This is such BS. I’m just going to nail auditions and quote $5,000 until my subscription runs out. I think we all should do the same.
Never underestimate the power of a hopeful but passive silent majority. That’s what these sites thrive on. As long as there are susceptible souls who are buying into a pipe dream, premium memberships will be sold, day after day after day.
WOW
I am one of those people who is told, on a daily basis, that my voice is the sexiest thing they’ve ever heard. On the phone, I could get 10 times the dates I get in person. I can sing like Barry White, and talk like Britney Spears. Tons of voice personalities I’ve been doing for years. With a mic in front if a large crowd, i feel at home. Reading Dr Suess weekly to kindergarten classes I don’t ever have interruption from the kids, and most of the teachers come to listen.
So, I signed up for Voices.com It’s been a year,not one job. I have decent equipment, and plenty of experience behind a mic. But not one voice job yet. The only thing I was offered was a job in male phone sex – NO THANKS, as it’s not ladies I’d be talking to.
I’ve called then for encouragement, advice, hope and jobs, they often don’t call back. I can take responsibility for not working, as I relied upon their services. But now I’ve spent all my money and am desperate to just land ONE STINKING JOB
I use my middle name, which is Dynomite, in hopes of getting attention.
In summary. . . H E L P ?!